S1E4: Uncovering Yourself After Burnout with Jayne Morris

In this episode of Becoming You – The Podcast, John Fleming speaks with Jayne Morris, a burnout coach, psychotherapist, and author, who shares the deeply personal story of how burnout became the turning point in her life - and the start of her own becoming.

Jayne reflects on how this pursuit of endless self-improvement, coupled with masking, people-pleasing, and societal expectations, left her physically, emotionally, and spiritually depleted.

Her burnout became a pivotal moment that eventually allowed her to reimagine success, reclaim her creativity, and begin to live in alignment with her truest self.

John and Jayne reflect on rest as a radical act, how burnout relates to identity suppression, and why we need to challenge the systems and beliefs that keep us stuck in cycles of overextension.

What You’ll Discover in This Episode:

• Jayne’s own experience with burnout and how it became the catalyst for reconnecting with her values and true identity.
• How people-pleasing, perfectionism, and striving to prove herself contributed to her burnout.
• How the inner critic and unconscious beliefs slowly chip away at identity.
• Why rest isn’t a luxury - but a fundamental part of wellbeing.
• How systems that reward constant output and hustle culture quietly lead us to burnout

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Connect with Jayne Morris

Website: https://www.jaynemorris.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/burnouttobrilliance/

Would you like to explore the idea of uncovering, embracing and being your true self?

Download your free self led workbook: https://www.becomingyou.ie/#workbook

Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast represents the personal experiences, opinions, and insights of the host, guests, and contributors. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice, whether medical, psychological, therapeutic, legal, or financial.

If you are experiencing mental health challenges, emotional distress, or require professional support, we strongly encourage you to seek guidance from a qualified professional or relevant support services.

Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast represents the personal experiences, opinions, and insights of the host, guests, and contributors. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice, whether medical, psychological, therapeutic, legal, or financial.

If you are experiencing mental health challenges, emotional distress, or require professional support, we strongly encourage you to seek guidance from a qualified professional or relevant support services.

Transcript

John: It's a pleasure to have you here. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Jayne: Sure. , I am a burnout coach and I have been for many years now. I burned out myself about 18 years ago or more, and I. At the same time as burning out my path crossed with coaching, but it wasn't quite enough at that time to save myself from myself. So I burned out regardless of all the great questions and regardless of the different perspective I was getting at the time on my life.

And I found myself leaving a career that really didn't feel like it was me. It didn't really feel like it was a, place where I could authentically be me, and, very much taking a deep dive into the world of coaching and integrative art psychotherapy that I also trained in, in tandem, have done that ever since.

it wasn't that my focus was on burnout with [00:01:00] individuals at the outset. In fact, I, I felt that I needed to distance myself from people going through that experience. But I guess there was a readiness in me that evolved and grew. And when I was in that space of readiness, people were appearing and their stories were very similar to my own.

And that was how I discovered I even had burned out. 'cause I didn't know I'd burned out when I burned out until clients were saying, this is happening and that's been happening. And the doctor says this and the doctor says that and it's, and they were calling it burnout. So I became really curious. About that was what that was.

and, I was really confused why nobody was talking about burnout at that time. and felt that if I'd known about it, then I maybe could have prevented that experience from happening, or at least prevented it from being as catastrophic as it was. so I went on a bit of a mission really to help raise awareness around burnout and wrote a book that was published about 10 years ago now, and it's still the [00:02:00] core of.

Of the work that I do today and I train coaches to be able to work with burnouts. 

John: Nice. Thank you for sharing. So, Jane, we have a question for you from the last guest. The question is, what has been a chrysalis moment in your life that has enabled you to become more of the person you believe you're becoming? 

Jayne: A chrysalis moment. I like that. It's funny 'cause I think it probably is the same moment actually. It's almost like the person that asked that question knew what I was going to say already. I, I think it was a chrysalis moment for me because my kind of interpretation or the kind of visual I get when I conceive of Chrysalis is a cocooning and a kind of hunkering in.

 Shutting off and, , and kind of going into the loop [00:03:00] of, , the very strands of creation that enables us to be who we are. So, when I burned out, I wasn't capable of doing anything, of being anything to anyone other than, you know, just a very basic existence of. Eating and sleeping and going to the bathroom.

And that was about it. And even that was a struggle. , I literally had to crawl there on all fours because I had such extreme vertigo that my head was spinning and, And I couldn't walk, at the worst stages of it. So I really was very cocooned, very in, in a shutdown. Kind of loopiness , then with time and self-inquiry and , kind of reprioritization of, where I was focusing myself, , in life, I, I then emerged from that.

So yeah, I think my burnout was my most significant chrysalis moment for [00:04:00] sure.

John: Mm. And what about it enabled you in that bit about to become more of who you think you're becoming? What was the connection to who you believe you're becoming in your life? 

Jayne: I think it was letting go of like a mantra that I'd learn in primary school that I wasn't aware was running in the background of literally every move I made, every thought I thought, every, everything that I was engaging in. Stemmed from this phrase that I had been taught that was repeated over and over in, assemblies every day at primary school, which was good, better, best.

You will never rest until your good is better and your better is best. So

John: Oh my God.

Jayne: I really embodied it, 

John: and what was this at school? Was this like a 

rhyme or.

Jayne: It was, yeah, like a, like, kind of like a rhyme. It was like the school motto that the headmaster [00:05:00] had, inherited from his own schooling. And he shared it with us with really genuine intentions for excellence and for children to strive to be all they could be, ironically.

And yet that bit. You will never rest. Meant that I didn't give myself permission to rest because that very mantra kind of indicated that rest isn't okay. Rest is not good for you, rest not allowed, it's not permitted. It's definitely not, celebrated or, you're not rewarded for it. And then the best, the bettering things, it was basically a perfectionist driver that then established and.

I wasn't trying to be better than anyone else, but I was trying to constantly improve on the version of myself. That was never good enough because there's never an end in sight when you are constantly having to better, your better, like, so pretty exhausting. 

John: I mean, people can't see my eyes right now, but I'm literally in shock.

That feels so [00:06:00] significant. Like when you said that line, you will never rest. I, I was like, what? Like, that's such a oppressive message.

Jayne: Mm-hmm. Yeah,

John: So you feel like that stifled who you were becoming in some way, did it?

Jayne: it definitely did and I feel like it was. I actually feel like there was like a separation that happened, like a kind of splintering of myself and I lived my life wearing, like a physical suit and, conducting myself according to someone else's. Prescribed version of what I needed to be. And it, and like I say, it wasn't that that individual, that person, like really deeply cared about the work he did, wanted to inspire.

It wasn't, it wasn't meant with [00:07:00] that intention and he had adopted it himself unknowingly, and probably without realizing that the impact of that in a negative sense. But it felt very much like. Not just one other person's version, but like a collective. Anything that, that then aligned to externally. So different organizations that I then gravitated towards people as well, that kind of fitted with that version of life, which then encouraged it and meant that I stayed kind of entranced in it, like as if I was, 

kind of taken over by something that wasn't me. 

John: Thank you for sharing. I'm still really impacted by this message. and how rest is

the subject of discrimination and prejudice and all sorts of horrible things when you know, I. We need rest. So much to support ourselves in, in [00:08:00] growing, in thriving. Rest is a, it's, it's a requirement. It's not just a nice to have.

Jayne: Yeah. Yeah. Whereas with the mantra I learned, it wasn't permitted, and the person that I took that on board from was very much in a position of authority. I. And somebody I respected and somebody that I placed trust in, I, came to the school, the primary school that I attended, where they had this mantra when I was about six years old.

And I'd moved at the time with my family who, , were from Scotland. , they moved down to England when I was six. I had quite a strong Scottish accent and , I know I arrived at this school. There was no. Sort of induction or it was in the middle of a term. I was just met at a gate by this person, taken by the hand and kind of looked to him to like, look after me, you know?

'. And this mantra was very much emphasized and then repeated, you know, so it became something that was just [00:09:00] there in the background until I burned out and until I went about sort of process of self-inquiry and recognized that that had been there and was the.

The root cause essentially of, of my burnout. , then when I recognized that I didn't need to be that anymore and I could come back to who I really am,

John: mm And when you say that, I have a relief.

Jayne: yeah.

John: Thematically all alter my body. As soon as you said the words, I could come back to who I am. I thought, oh,

what

a, what a relief.

Jayne: Yeah. 

John: Jane, who have you been becoming more broadly in your life? What's your story outside of burnout?

Jayne: Well, it feels pretty big actually because who I was when I was stuck in the, you are not allowed to rest and you have to make everything better. Was so limited. Like you used the word stifled, like it felt very, literally like a horse with blinkers on that [00:10:00] had to just go in this one direction and couldn't experience or appreciate how much more there would be out there like.

The vastness of life and actually the vastness of my own internal landscape. So I really, the reason I was drawn to the integrative arts psychotherapy work that I trained in was because I had a really, deep sort of affinity to creative. Outlets of expression, when I was really young, but I didn't get to engage with those or further than when I went to secondary school.

 And there was something about like painting, drawing, writing creatively that really, I came alive when I got to experience. And it was, in pursuing the training with that, that was such a strong part of it. I got to. Explore me and experience me, and it was per [00:11:00] permission to engage in, in myself really.

Yeah, in a way that I don't know that I could have come about by many other means. At that time in my life at least, there wasn't anything else sort of presenting itself in front of me that would've given me the, the setup, the structure to, to explore that. So that played a really big part. And in opening up more of my own creativity, I think I've just discovered a lot of expansiveness, like a limitless and, , I've always cared beyond myself about other beings, like from the smallest little creatures through to like the planet at large. Right. And so it was a bit of a strange child in terms of, yeah. Other children around me would be squashing spiders and, not bothering to feed their pets and eating animals and [00:12:00] like.

littering or like not thinking about recycling or, you know, all these different things that when I discovered, for example, that chicken was actually an animal before it arrived on your plate as this little white piece of meat. Like, I, I just, I couldn't understand then what, what, you know, why would you eat something that had been alive, like, just couldn't compute it.

, and as soon as I knew things like that. About food. I couldn't then eat the food. , as soon as I knew that something was going to cause harm to the planet, I couldn't go along with whatever that thing was, at least not if I knew there was an alternative. And, so I started, becoming aware.

I think that there was a genuine deep care and compassion that I had that I'd sort of also. Blinkered that had been there since I was really little, and I started bringing that back. 

John: And. How did you make sense of this in [00:13:00] terms of your identity then? When you think of the question like, who am I before and after? What was the the difference at any?

Jayne: I guess who I was before was restricted. Who I was after was like limitless.

John: Hmm. That feels really expansive. 

Jayne: and the care that I had felt more precious and that I needed to honor that somehow I couldn't neglect it anymore. Like the work that I did before I burned out, it didn't care about. People or the planet or anything. You know, it was, soulless work. I, I was working in marketing for children's television programs and those children's television programs, I felt a lot of what was being set up around them was actually doing harm.

Like, I remember being told at, at the time before stepping away from that environment that, it was the. They were just starting to build [00:14:00] these, interactive online games where you create an avatar and you live in this virtual world and it's like what? You're gonna build these this to go along with a television program and encourage children, not just to watch the televisions television series like over and over and over, but to then come off of that and go onto another screen and get sucked into this artificial world where.

They're, they're not learning to about anything about themselves. It's like creating an avatar like that. I, I just couldn't get it and I just, how is that healthy and how is that helpful? I just see that as being nothing but harm. 

John: Wow. Children's tv. How interesting. From children's TV to burnout coach,

Jayne: yeah.

, that's a definite journey, isn't it? 

But yeah, I had a bit of an illusion at the beginning that I could only really work with children, I think because I've worked with [00:15:00] children since I was a child. I, I did a lot of martial arts, from a very young age and started working with. Children who were younger than me. As soon as I was able to relay something to somebody else, then I was put in a position to do that like my, in my karate school.

Jayne: The way you gained a black belt was not just about your own abilities and what you had mastered and learned, but also about your ability to relay that to others. And so I was teaching classes of children, from probably as young as about 14 or 15, years of age myself. And then during my kind of A levels, I, 

I earned extra money teaching, German exchange students that came to my town, English in the summer holidays, they would come over for language exchange programs and I'd go to this lady's house who hosted them all and teach them English. And and then when I was at university, similarly, I used to have [00:16:00] extra.

Money come through from tutoring and tutoring in languages or English or, and still karate, TaeKwonDo, other martial arts. And then when I left university, I went to Japan for three years as an English teacher. And I was a television presenter for a, for a children's English language learning program.

So when I came back to the England. It seemed natural to stay in, something to do with kids and tv, which was how I ended up in that marketing role. Except it wasn't creative and it wasn't enriching, and it was, it was the, the backend of TV production, which didn't light me up at all. And like I say, felt like I was actually doing harm, not good.

But I then felt like I could only work with children. So initially I didn't feel I was gonna work with adults as a coach. I thought I would need to. Set myself up as a sort of a youth coach or something. But fortunately I overcame that and realized that, you know, I, [00:17:00] I still love children and I love being around children, but I, I really feel I am here to actually help adults not to burn out, as much as I recognize children can too.

And so maybe that will come in time, but, 

John: is so interesting because in a way, you know, teaching is so focused on development. You know, I suppose in teaching English it was development of a particular scale. But I. I often think teaching and coaching are not too dissimilar, you know, particularly in the types of people that they attract, because there's often a drive for supporting people, reaching their potential, problem solving, figuring things out, developing new skills, you know?

So actually, in a way, you were, it sounds like you were already seeking that in other roles before 

Jayne: That's definitely true. 

John: Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about then what you offer as a burnout coach in terms of supporting people who are maybe recovering from burnout or who are trying to navigate their way through it [00:18:00] or out of it, in yeah, their own becoming process.

, how do you 

Jayne: sure. 

John: work with people? 

Jayne: Well, initially. There's an exploration, and it's a self-discovery. , I think we're discovering sort of at different aspects of ourselves all the time. You know, I'm even like through you asking me questions, I'm realizing things that I maybe didn't realize before. Right? So, when I begin working with somebody, there's usually, kind of a three stages to the process.

I guess the first stage discovering. And taking stock on what's led them to be in front of me and be working with me in the first place. And then, going beneath the surface of that. Then the next stage is about essentially recovery. And somebody might. , have actually been burned out and been off work for quite a while before they'd reach out to me. And they might feel like they've recovered somewhat from burnout, but, the recovery is actually about recovering themselves.

So [00:19:00] recovering all the bits that have been fragmented and scattered and lost and and then renewing the energy as those parts kind of come back online and are able to be. , acknowledged and, , reintegrated. Then there's often a sort of sense of somebody's energy really returning to themself. , and I think often with burnout.

There will be something that will prevent someone from fully getting themself back and, and all of their energy coming back online again. And it's a, like a self preservation. , so that they don't just go back to, to burnout again. And, and I genuinely believe. That burnout is like a cycle, and until we understand the thing that we are compromising on over and over again, or the thing we're overextending on, or whatever it is that we haven't believed we are worthy of, or whatever, however it shows up, everybody's different.

Then the body will hold back. And the process will repeat [00:20:00] and, and repeat again. And so I support people to work out what is it that ultimately will lead them to burning out again unless they actually get it. And, and when they get that, it's like there's a promise they often need to make to themselves to really honor that, honor that awareness, and commit to that.

Being prioritized. , and then the energy just comes back. And so the third part of the work is then with people that I then look at is, well, and what next? So if you've got all of this energy and you are honoring things in this different way, then what does that mean for you? And so I'll kind of often take them forward into the future to explore what that would mean.

And then again. Bring that to the present. , so that they have clear, steps forward for themselves and an idea as to how they can make that sustainable. And often that means saying no to certain things, walking away from other things, and moving forward in a, a whole new way, but a way that being inside them [00:21:00] all along, it's just not been honored before.

 So that, that's really in essence what my work's all about and what I. Support other coaches be able to facilitate as well. 

John: How do you connect that? That process then with this idea of, identity and becoming your most authentic self, like where does that fit into that recovery 

Jayne: Hmm. 

John: do you think?

Jayne: It's different for everybody, but it's always a component that comes up , at some stage. In some shape or form, and it might be little pieces that reveal themself quite kind of independently to each other, and then they kind of all get collected up together. For other people it can be, more of a sort of gentle unfolding that just they, they'd start to explore and evolve into.

 It's definitely something that can't be rushed and and for some people there's a really strong [00:22:00] knowing. That there's a piece around identity that they want to claim for themselves and find, and for others, their sense of themselves has been so diluted that they're almost not even, they don't even really know who they are and how they're going to, start to shape or form a sense of themselves that feels different to others.

That is their own unique imprint. So, 

 It really varies. And, and for me, I think I'm, I'm still forever. Finding that I don't, I don't know that the work is ever fully done,

John: Yeah.

Jayne: I do know that I've got a very strong sense now of what feels, right for me and what I can act on with integrity and where that's being compromised.

And I still experience discomfort if something is compromising on my values or doesn't quite feel aligned. I struggle with that. I'm, I'm much happier when I'm able to say, [00:23:00] no, I'm not doing this because it doesn't feel completely good. But then sometimes in life, I feel like. We've got one foot in one world and one in another.

Sometimes with where, where things are at. And, and then sometimes there is gonna be a bit of a compromise. 

John: I am really curious about the link between burnout and masking. 

Jayne: I think there's a really strong link and I think I personally masked a huge amount. All the way through my life up until burning out. And I'm aware I still do it, today, but more choiceful, because it's actually quite a helpful skill, right? In certain circumstances. But if we are doing it without the awareness that we're doing it and we're doing it, as a default, then that becomes really exhausting.

 You know, so like an example of that might be if I, am delivering a talk or a workshop or [00:24:00] something, and I don't really feel totally energized to be up there doing whatever the thing is I'm doing or I'm, or it's in a venue that I don't really enjoy being in that setup. But, so I might kind of.

Yeah, almost like g myself up to be able to, to do it, even though it goes against what my body would ideally like for me that day, you know? But I will then be really honest with the audience about what's going on for me, because then if I name it, I'm less in need of the mask and I am able to be more authentic and genuine.

So like sometimes the way my body will respond if I'm bringing myself to something that's out of my. Comfort zone doesn't really agree with me. I can go into like full body, like shaking, or like sweating profusely. Like my body will just be like, get me out of here. This isn't like, and I, I will then, if it's full body like shakes, I will, I [00:25:00] will find a way to physically shake out my whole body so that releases.

From my system. And with the sweating I've just learned that I just tell people, right? , I've been pretty stressed before I got up here today, so you might notice my armpits, you know? And then that way my body won't feel it needs to do it so much. ' cause it's like being acknowledged that it's, you know, 

so, 

yeah. 

John: Well, first of all, I wanna caveat this and say I think that burnout comes in many shape and forms, probably. 

Yeah. 

And I have a theory that there's a whole grouping. Of burnout that happens because of a suppression of who really is.

Jayne: yeah, 

John: So like, if thinking about like, LGBT, people who stay in the closet or feel like they have to hide their true identity, think about, neurodiverse people who who aren't aware that they're neurodiverse or who are and who are trying to hide it. in relation to race as [00:26:00] well. I had a really interesting conversation with Viv Grant in the last episode around race and how that informs your becoming journey. And I think that race can be another thing where, you know, we try, you know, as white people, sometimes we try to avoid our own whiteness and in some ways that suppresses part of our identity, which can I, I see them as almost like.

These are all like mini micro aggressions towards self, if there's a lot of those happening simultaneously that could lead to to burnout, what are your thoughts on that? 

Jayne: I would, say that we've got a very similar take on that and that those microaggressions towards self, like where there's not just a lot of them, but a lot of them consistently there, and they might interchange in terms of what the combination is of them, but when they're going on in the background.

All of the time, and there's no let up from that and no release [00:27:00] from that, then, that essentially is what leads to burnout is the cumulative effect of ongoing stresses. Internally the things that come up for us that prevent us from being who we are, and then also externally, the things that are put on us or encouraged of us, or demanded of us that are at odds with how we know we need to be for ourselves to be.

Truly authentically us and, and meeting the, the needs that we have in the way that we would instinctively know how to do. And if, if we were surrounded by people who cared, then everybody would want that for each other. But the sad part, I think, is that care has gone out of the equation in so many settings, whether that's educational settings, workplace settings, healthcare settings.

People are struggling to meet demands that have been placed on them that don't come from a place of care, 

John: Jane, what are the [00:28:00] hallmarks? Of burnout in your opinion, you know, for people who might be listening in, who are trying to understand it better because of people in their lives or people that they work with, or people just for themselves, like, do you think that there are kind of some hallmark signs of being in or near burnout?

Jayne: Yes, I do. And the, the way in which burnout shows up is always different. So each week I'm speaking with individuals who are burning out and they always come with a different assortment of ways in which they're experiencing it. But if you think about. Sort of really broadly, your cognitive functioning starts to become impaired.

So the way in which you usually accessed information, were able to think things through, your ability to recall data or facts or figures or work with things that starts to be impaired. And often the manifestation [00:29:00] of that physically. Will be head related. So it could be like headaches or even like flaky scalp like spots.

Everybody like will have a different way in which that will come up. For me, it was the, dizziness, like the vertigo. So there's a cognitive functioning, there's your general physical functioning, so there will often be things like backache or IBS or heart palpitations or again, everybody will experience.

Slightly different things physically, but there will be an imbalance in the system that will manifest. And there's some really interesting studies between the, the thinking patterns and the physical manifestations that often correlate. And then energetically we will have less get up and go, like energy verve, whatever you wanna call it.

We will feel like we are empty. Quite often the, the sort of metaphors people will use are a bit like. The way you talk about your, your mobile phone or [00:30:00] something, you know, like the, the battery's gone. And then like intuitively there will be like an inability to connect to your inner wisdom. So people who usually are quite good at.

Making a decision on something based on their gut feeling they can, can't access that anymore. People that usually would actually very much empathize and care about others just suddenly find themselves void of the ability to empathize, you know, and even environmentally around us, like stuff will start to get out of whack.

 So we, we, if we're not taking care of ourselves. We were less able to then take care of. Our physical environments. So usually those that are up together with things will find that they're just not anymore. Like plants are dying and cars are breaking down and, you know, I, I think we can, we can be, we can come become quite accident prone and you know, it is like signs will [00:31:00] be there coming at us from all angles at every level of ourself.

And when we notice we can do something to course correct, but when we override, I. The signs and the symptoms through all the ways that they show up. Then essentially our body needs to save ourselves from ourselves and take us out of the game. And that's what burnout is. It's, self preservation. Really.

John: so interesting, isn't it about like the choice. At a certain point, like let's say you have an accident, for example,

Jayne: Hmm 

John: do you double down 

and keep going and be strong and not rest like that mantra that you got in school or do you go, this is a sign trying to tell me something and explore what meaning, lies behind it and take time out.

To think and reflect about that and account for what you might need to [00:32:00] recover and. Get well and it, it feels like there's often opportunities on a daily basis for that actually. So there's the big kind of things where you might like have a, you know, serious accident, I crash your car or you break your leg or whatever.

But actually I just think about the amount of times I walk into the door and bruise my, the side of my hip and I just keep going. I'm just like, I'm in a rush. I mean, actually that is an opportunity to slow down.

Jayne: Yes.

John: If I chose differently.

Jayne: Yeah. And those little. Subtle signs. Okay. Bashing your hips, maybe you're not quite so subtle, but like there'll be the micro version of that that's there, that if we have the awareness to catch that and really respond to it, then there is in very small senses, things we can do on a daily basis that then allow the balance to come back.

And sometimes we do [00:33:00] need to double down, but we wouldn't need to double down if we. Paid attention to and responded to actually all of the signs that we get on a daily basis that are just letting us know, like nudging us, like, oh, oh, you sure you wanna speak to this person now? Do you really need to send that email?

You know, like, The, the doubling down though. I think when things get to a stage where we know we've tipped. Too far one way, and we, we can kind of sense that if we keep going then that there's an inevitable crash ahead, then doubling down is the most powerful way to bring things back online. So, I, I remember when I lived in Brussels, it was over there for about a year at one stage, and somebody I worked with said that she had come to realize that when she tipped.

The scales and was headed that way. If she, if she spoke to everyone around her and kind of renegotiated her week, she could set things up so that she would [00:34:00] go to bed every night 8:00 PM And she was a great like sleeper, so she could just go to bed at eight and sleep till late and get 12 hours sleep for a week, and she was sorted and then she could kind of like come back to life again and.

And she wouldn't be able to do bedtimes with the kids. She wouldn't see her husband, she wouldn't, you know, but she knew that on the other side of that week, she would be like a new woman. So like we've all got our own version of what that doubling down is. And if we allow ourselves for it, even though we might make up stories about if I don't do this thing or that thing or I don't respond, that it's all gonna go to shit and fall apart.

Like it actually won't, it will mean that when we come back. We can get through that stuff so much more succinctly and easily, because we've given ourselves the chance to recharge and, and come back to life. 'cause essentially what happens is we, yeah, we kill ourselves, we end up living like a zombie and that we kid ourselves that we're still giving stuff of good value when we're in that space, but we're [00:35:00] not really, yeah. 

John: Yeah, and life seems, 

I don't want to be really fatalistic, but it seems kind of pointless when you get into the zombie state. You know? It's kind of like, what purpose is this serving now for me or other people, you know? Yeah. And I appreciate that. Some people just that that is their reality and they feel trapped or stuck.

Jayne: Hmm.

John: So I want to honor that as well and not be too dismissive of it, because some people really do feel stuck.

Jayne: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that zombie-like state, can, can feel like you say, a, a place that they're stuck in and can't get out of. And yet deep down inside there will be. A chink of light, of, you know, of knowing that has the, the key that just needs to be turned to, to adjust, make an adjustment, a small adjustment, but that changes [00:36:00] everything.

 And I'm really quite passionate about that because I think we all have a way out of this. We are, we are collectively creating the, like a prison, it's not just like a horse with blinkers on it. It's like entire like. Cage around ourselves. Otherwise, when we buy into, the bullshit that society will, will have us think that we need to go along with. 

John: I was just gonna say, people get really rewarded for being busy and productive. That's, that's so seen as successful. Busier you are. The more productive you are, the more successful you can sometimes be seen as. And I did a post, I can't remember, it was months ago now, where I was saying, you know, for me these days, is is about being radically resting.

You know? I was like, when I take a full day off and I do nothing, or I. Well, I do nothing. I rest. It's even the language around it, you know, I used to say that a lot actually. I'm doing, I'm doing nothing today. And I'm like, no, you're not doing nothing, John. You're, you're [00:37:00] resting. But when I do that now, I see that as success, but that's been a real mind shift. 

Jayne: Yeah, it really is. I, I think it's quite a game changer. I discovered a few years ago that if I took a full month off in the summer, what a difference that made. That's actually only one group. Maybe the one good thing that still exists in mainstream education is the holidays, like the fact that we do still honor that we need rest on a regular basis to catch back up on ourselves, and we really need an extended rest at some stage in the year.

But why on earth do we think that adults are any different to children? And that we can then cut that down to what if people are lucky, they get 20 days of leave a year or 

something like. and that's if you actually take it. But the number of people that I work with who either don't take their full leave or they take their leave, but they work when they're on leave, and that's been normalized.

It's like they wonder we've got the crisis that we're

in with.

John: but you know, how many [00:38:00] people do we know when they're on their holidays that are still responding to work emails, you know, or

things like that. And I'm also thinking about like cultural differences. So in Ireland secondary school students get three months off in the summer

June, July, August, three months holidays and primary school get two months full off of July and all of August. And I grew up with that, so that's always been my reality. But when I went and moved to the UK for work when I was 20 and I found out that it's not summer holidays, it's like half term because it's like six weeks long. So it's just like, it's almost like it's just a slightly long, or Christmas holidays almost, you know? It's, it doesn't re, like when they told me, I was like, that's not summer. Summer is three months. I couldn't wrap my head around the idea that I wouldn't have three months off from school.

Like, I just was like, I don't know how kids here could do that. I, I

Jayne: and [00:39:00] and there's me thinking six weeks is fabulous, right? Three months. My goodness. That's so much better. Yeah. That's why I need to challenge myself. Then how can I take three, three months off a year, not one month.

John: Yeah, and then you have like the opposite again at the other side of the Atlantic in the US where people who are in full-time employment are lucky if their organization offers them two weeks a year.

That's, that's 10 days leave. Like, I, I actually, I can't fathom how people could stay well

and, and not have rest scheduled rest time, 

you know?

And then you get into a whole conversation, don't you, about working weeks. Whether they should really, the weekend should be longer, you know? Just how we structure our, our time and our lives, I think is 

Jayne: Yeah. 

John: for review at the moment globally, 

Jayne: Yeah, 

John: it?

Jayne: [00:40:00] yeah. The hopeful sense, there are lots of organizations experimenting at the moment with. So let's say for example, the four day work week where they do that and actually reasonably make accommodations for the fact that that essentially that day then can't just be covered on the other four days.

'cause all you do is make those days longer. And the reality was probably that person was already doing really long days. So looking forward just, yeah, there's no point in then. Compacting the killing of oneself into less days and then, but if it's done healthily and, and it's a genuine, reasonable amount of work on those four days, then great.

You know? 

John: I am just laughing because it's just all of the. Like societal conditioning, when you start having this conversation just pours out because you could totally see how if organizations reduce it to a four day week, they would expect [00:41:00] it you to become more efficient, which means you need to be busier when you are working, doing more.

When you're working to make up for this favor, they've done you by. Giving you another day off, and it's like, well, actually, you've just now completely canceled it because they now need that day off to recover from your expectations on the other four. Yeah. So it's not just about time off, it's also about a mindset shift, in relation to efficiency, productivity, and what one person can achieve in any given week.

Jayne: Yes. And already in the majority of organizations, post pandemic. People are doing more than they were pre pandemic and that hasn't been readjusted. And so people are overstretched and they're, you know, most roles they could easily take a third of their work off and, and somebody else come. And that be a full-time job for them.

You know, it's, [00:42:00] it's, people are really struggling at the moment, by and large. Too much on their plate. And that's really negligent. I think where cuts were made and people through goodwill went above and beyond, but then it hasn't been put back to a place that's, reasonable. And that's the bit that I think we need to challenge.

 And we do need to wake up and come out of our zombie-like states, but we can only really do that. If we're well rested and that's also part of, I think, the control at large is that if everybody's too tired to challenge the, what's been normalized, then they'll just keep flogging themselves or being allowed to be, be flogged by someone else.

But if actually people say no and take the rest they need, they might then stand a chance to stand up for what 

John: oh, oh, that's so interesting, Jane, about how deliberate. This could be, I mean, I think that a lot [00:43:00] of our health and wellbeing issues have der from a lot of the things that support capitalism. 

but this could be another one.

Jayne: Yeah. 

John: could suit capitalism to have exhausted people,

Jayne: Mm-hmm.

John: which is when you start thinking about it is.

A scary thought,

Jayne: Yeah. 

John: Dan, I could talk to you about this all day, but we do need to wrap it up. So I was wondering what would your closing thought or sentiment be 

Jayne: Hmm. So my closing sentiment or thought. I guess it's about waking up actually. And in order to wake up, we first need sleep. Like really sleep, allow ourselves to really rest the things that we've been deprived of. We need to gift back to ourselves so we can then take the blinkers off and, and, and move outwardly, like sort of really expand [00:44:00] into our full potential. And be in the world in a way that we're all here really to be our own unique individual expressions of ourselves and what different world it would be if we all came alive in that way. 

John: Nice. Jane, we'd love a question from you for our next guest. 

Jayne: Hmm. 

John: would you like me to ask our next guest? I.

Jayne: If you. Woke up tomorrow and felt fully alive, who would you really be?

John: Ooh, nice. If you woke up tomorrow and felt really who would you be?

Lovely. fully alive.

Thank you. We will tag you when that episode goes live, and you 

can listen in and see what they say.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Jay.

Jayne: Oh, thank you, John. It's been a pleasure.